Comments on: An Unexpected Result: Genetics Sheds Light on the Spanish Inquisition http://spittoon.23andme.com/2008/12/04/an-unexpected-result-genetics-sheds-light-on-the-spanish-inquisition/ A receptacle for genetic knowledge. Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:01:10 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: clipper http://spittoon.23andme.com/2008/12/04/an-unexpected-result-genetics-sheds-light-on-the-spanish-inquisition/comment-page-1/#comment-1717 clipper Fri, 17 Apr 2009 22:31:25 +0000 http://spittoon.23andme.com/?p=2166#comment-1717 The conclusions reached in this paper are unprecedented and almost certainly overstate the percentage of Iberian males today who are of north African or Jewish genetic origin. This study has been met with disbelief and criticism of its methods. It has no basis in historical fact and the authors have admitted both surprise at the results and disagreement inte se about the validity of their own findings. One, in particular, has said the stated Jewish component (~19%) probably includes a significant number of other likely ethnic peoples, such as Phoenicians, whose genetic signatures are virtually indistinguishable. The Jewish population in Iberia never exceeded 3-5%. Medieval Arab invaders probably constituted a slightly higher percentage. Berbers were far more numerous, but their impact on Iberia, and vice versa, was long and continuous. A second study dealing with the genetic similarity of mtDna among southern Spanish and Tunisians, reported here, has noted the genetic flow was from Europe to north Africa, not the other way around, and it took place thousands of years before the Moorish invasion of Iberia in 711 CE. It is entirely possible a similar dynamic was at work in conection with at least a portion of Y chromosome subjects the researchers tested in this project. Watch for a public correction or refinement of the conclusions reached here so as to more closely approximate what others have inferred from similar analyses or existing historical sources. It's only a matter of time. The conclusions reached in this paper are unprecedented and almost certainly overstate the percentage of Iberian males today who are of north African or Jewish genetic origin. This study has been met with disbelief and criticism of its methods. It has no basis in historical fact and the authors have admitted both surprise at the results and disagreement inte se about the validity of their own findings. One, in particular, has said the stated Jewish component (~19%) probably includes a significant number of other likely ethnic peoples, such as Phoenicians, whose genetic signatures are virtually indistinguishable. The Jewish population in Iberia never exceeded 3-5%. Medieval Arab invaders probably constituted a slightly higher percentage. Berbers were far more numerous, but their impact on Iberia, and vice versa, was long and continuous.

A second study dealing with the genetic similarity of mtDna among southern Spanish and Tunisians, reported here, has noted the genetic flow was from Europe to north Africa, not the other way around, and it took place thousands of years before the Moorish invasion of Iberia in 711 CE. It is entirely possible a similar dynamic was at work in conection with at least a portion of Y chromosome subjects the researchers tested in this project.

Watch for a public correction or refinement of the conclusions reached here so as to more closely approximate what others have inferred from similar analyses or existing historical sources. It’s only a matter of time.

]]> By: Dirk http://spittoon.23andme.com/2008/12/04/an-unexpected-result-genetics-sheds-light-on-the-spanish-inquisition/comment-page-1/#comment-1153 Dirk Tue, 09 Dec 2008 02:53:02 +0000 http://spittoon.23andme.com/?p=2166#comment-1153 Now that I have access to the study, a few comments, and a business suggestion for 23andMe. :) - As others have already said, there are many populations (Celts, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Visigoths, Arabs, etc.) that contributed people to the Iberian peninsula, but which were ignored in this study. - The 19 markers were well chosen; however all samples should have been typed for all of them! - This study represents a monumental amount of work, but the conclusions about each haplogroup in the different populations are impaired by the limited resolution of subhaplogroups within formerly-called-E3b, G, I, J, KxP, and R1b. As 23andMe knows, there are many downstream subhaplogroups, each one of which with a distinct distribution in different populations. Thus, I do believe there is a market for 23andMe to offer a Y-chromosome-only SNP chip, which tests for all known (including all the 'private' ones) Y-SNPs at once! This chip can be marketed to academic researchers and private researchers (Genetic Genealogists). :) Now that I have access to the study, a few comments, and a business suggestion for 23andMe. :)

- As others have already said, there are many populations (Celts, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Visigoths, Arabs, etc.) that contributed people to the Iberian peninsula, but which were ignored in this study.
- The 19 markers were well chosen; however all samples should have been typed for all of them!
- This study represents a monumental amount of work, but the conclusions about each haplogroup in the different populations are impaired by the limited resolution of subhaplogroups within formerly-called-E3b, G, I, J, KxP, and R1b. As 23andMe knows, there are many downstream subhaplogroups, each one of which with a distinct distribution in different populations.

Thus, I do believe there is a market for 23andMe to offer a Y-chromosome-only SNP chip, which tests for all known (including all the ‘private’ ones) Y-SNPs at once! This chip can be marketed to academic researchers and private researchers (Genetic Genealogists). :)

]]> By: pp987 http://spittoon.23andme.com/2008/12/04/an-unexpected-result-genetics-sheds-light-on-the-spanish-inquisition/comment-page-1/#comment-1151 pp987 Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:11:12 +0000 http://spittoon.23andme.com/?p=2166#comment-1151 This article may not be taken seriously. It's been made through extrapolations of scientific and historical data that makes it less than scientific. They used the J2 haplogroup as a marker of jewish heritage, when it is common throughout the mediterranean basin and is credited as a probable neolithic marker (See Lebanon, Greece, Italy). J1, which has half frequency of J2 in jewish population has not been found to be near as common in Iberia. There was no specific jewish haplotypes compared. The E3b2 (relative north africa) infusion in iberia may be partly older than the moorish invasion, as many scholars are trying to prove, and the figures about north african admisture in iberia had been analysed before in good studies. Actually, this study may deserve better evaluation before being acknowledged in spitoon. You should not post it only beacuse it's gimmicky. Regards from a genetics fan. This article may not be taken seriously. It’s been made through extrapolations of scientific and historical data that makes it less than scientific. They used the J2 haplogroup as a marker of jewish heritage, when it is common throughout the mediterranean basin and is credited as a probable neolithic marker (See Lebanon, Greece, Italy). J1, which has half frequency of J2 in jewish population has not been found to be near as common in Iberia. There was no specific jewish haplotypes compared.
The E3b2 (relative north africa) infusion in iberia may be partly older than the moorish invasion, as many scholars are trying to prove, and the figures about north african admisture in iberia had been analysed before in good studies.
Actually, this study may deserve better evaluation before being acknowledged in spitoon. You should not post it only beacuse it’s gimmicky. Regards from a genetics fan.

]]> By: cschick http://spittoon.23andme.com/2008/12/04/an-unexpected-result-genetics-sheds-light-on-the-spanish-inquisition/comment-page-1/#comment-1129 cschick Thu, 04 Dec 2008 20:07:54 +0000 http://spittoon.23andme.com/?p=2166#comment-1129 Hm. That's assuming the ratios stayed the same, rather than slowly taking over the population. Ja? Hm. That’s assuming the ratios stayed the same, rather than slowly taking over the population. Ja?

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